Hard to believe that there are whole societies out there that will condone or even mandate marrying your first cousin...
BBC:
It is estimated that at least 55% of British Pakistanis are married to first cousins and the tradition is also common among some other South Asian communities and in some Middle Eastern countries.
But there is a problem: marrying someone who is themselves a close family member carries a risk for children - a risk that lies within the code of life; within our genes.
Communities that practice cousin marriage experience higher levels of some very rare but very serious illnesses - illnesses known as recessive genetic disorders.
Now, one Labour MP is calling for an end to the practice. "We have to stop this tradition of first cousin marriages," Keighley MP Ann Cryer tells Newsnight.
Mrs Cryer believes an open debate on the subject is needed because - despite the risks - cousin marriage remains very popular.
Mrs Cryer's constituency is in the Bradford area, where the rates of cousin marriage are well above the national average. It is estimated that three out of four marriages within Bradford's Pakistani community are between first cousins.
The practice remains so popular because the community believes there are real benefits to marrying in the family. Many British Pakistanis celebrate cousin marriage because it is thought to generate more stable relationships.
Such unions are seen as strong, building as they do on already tight family networks.
"You have an understanding," explains Neila Butt, who married her first cousin, Farooq, nine years ago.
"Family events are really nice because my in-laws and his are related," she says.
"You have the same family history and when you talk about the old times either here or in Pakistan you know who you are talking about. It's just a nicer emotional feel."
But the statistics for recessive genetic illness in cousin marriages make sobering reading.
British Pakistanis are 13 times more likely to have children with genetic disorders than the general population - they account for just over 3% of all births but have just under a third of all British children with such illnesses.
Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.
Recessive genetic disorders are caused by variant genes. There are hundreds of different recessive genetic disorders, many associated with severe disability and sometimes early death, and each caused by a different variant gene.
We all have two copies of every gene. If you inherit one variant gene you will not fall ill.
If, however, a child inherits a copy of the same variant gene from each of its parents it will develop one of these illnesses.
The variant genes that cause genetic illness tend to be very rare. In the general population the likelihood of a couple having the same variant gene is a hundred to one.
In cousin marriages, if one partner has a variant gene the risk that the other has it too is far higher - more like one in eight.
Myra Ali has a very rare recessive genetic condition, known as Epidermolisis Bulosa.
Her parents were first cousins. So were her grandparents.
"My skin is really fragile, and can blister very easily with a slight knock or tear," she says.
Myra has strong views about the practice of cousin marriage as a result. "I'm against it, because there's a high risk of illness occurring", she says.
According to Ann Cryer MP, whose Keighley constituency has a large Pakistani population, much of the Pakistani community is in denial about the problem.
She tells Newsnight that she believes it is time for an open debate on the subject: "As we address problems of smoking, drinking, obesity, we say it's a public health issue, and therefore we all have to get involved with it in persuading people to adopt a different lifestyle", she says.
"I think the same should be applied to this problem in the Asian community. They must adopt a different lifestyle. They must look outside the family for husbands and wives for their young people."
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For real...that is just sick....but well people are free to do whatever they want....
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i seriously want to know a muslim's perspective on this topic.
why they hell do muslim's marry their first cousins?
where in the Quran does it state that they must marry family (that's sick)
which bright eyed cracked head decided that marrying family is ok?
I'm sure Allah didn't say anything about this. Just the thought sickens me.
No wonder some of the muslim communities are messed up. All their brains are severly disabled.
Honestly, the person who thought marrying their first cousin is ok was most definitely on some good weed.
damn!!!!
buahahahahahahahahaha
why cuz the girls on bindidates don't wear hijabs or they think that posting themselves on bindidates is against their religion?
just imagine you have to marry your first cousin sister. EWWWWWWW
GOOD GOD MAN!
apparently the increased risk is about the same as for a woman over the age of 40 having a child which is a more north american phenomenon... why no comments on that?
the reason there is no comments on that is because most muslim children who are born to a first-cousin married couple are not born to a couple who is over 40 years old.
there's more risks of a child to be born with problems from a cousin marriage than from a couple who is 40 years.
again, marrying your cousin is absolutely disgusting.
if cane and abel didnt marry their own sisters, we wouldnt be here. (from a christian/muslim perspective)
Ummm face it the bible is full of too many loopholes like a soap opera storyline !
I personally think Christ was a Psycho cult leader like Charles manson or Sai baba... And he had enough cult followers that over the years his life got exagerated ! There was no proof that he walked on water or all that other crap just fairy tales ! Its as dumb as hindu's preying to statues !
If Ted Bundy was born 2000 years ago and convinced people he was the son of god woulf they all be preying to him ? Sumb theory Mr. Z !
The whole adam and eve crap does not make sense !
I Remember watching an old episode of the twighlight zone where 2 people landed on a planet and were named adam and even and ther ship crashed and they started earth, I thought it was hilarious.
well sorry if my comment sounded ignorant
what i am saying....it was very ignorant.
but then again i was typing through disgust and aggression.
but tell me, why do some muslim couples end up being first cousins. and don't tell me there isn't cuz i know a lot of muslims who are like this.
oh and i didn't state that the Quran said that muslims should marry within their own family. i was ASKING if the Quran stated it. Obviously i don't know so that's why i asked.
well sorry if my comment sounded ignorant
what i am saying....it was very ignorant.
but then again i was typing through disgust and aggression.
but tell me, why do some muslim couples end up being first cousins. and don't tell me there isn't cuz i know a lot of muslims who are like this.
i cant tell you why some muslim couples are first cousins. you have to ask someone who knows better. like i said, i think its weird but thats just me.
there is a way of asking a question when it comes to these matters. you should think things out. you asked where im the quran does it say muslims must marry their cousins. if you had any understanding about anything, you would know that isnt true so why bother asking such a ridiculous question. people of your sort dont like engaging in a conversation, youre obviously here to stir the pot.
i have said my piece. you have appologized for your previous ignorance and thats cool, yet your tone is still extremely condesending. this will be the last time i reply to you.
well sorry if my comment sounded ignorant
what i am saying....it was very ignorant.
but then again i was typing through disgust and aggression.
but tell me, why do some muslim couples end up being first cousins. and don't tell me there isn't cuz i know a lot of muslims who are like this.
Indeed, Birmingham Primary Care Trust estimates that one in ten of all children born to first cousins in the city either dies in infancy or goes on to develop serious disability as a result of a recessive genetic disorder.
I agree in that marrying cousins isn't something I'd do, and I consider pretty gross. But, like mentioned, it is tradition. And face it, providing 'estimates' or saying that you know someone with a condition doesn't prove anything. I'd like to see the scientific journals which used proper statistics and methods to come to their conclusions.
It's like this woman I saw on the bus once, saying smoking in no way causes lung cancer, because her grandmother had smoked a pack a day and never had cancer. Great conclusion
Dok, its simple genetics. Although i don't have links, and i'm too lazy to post them, from general knowledge i think its plausable. Think about it this way, each culture/group is prone to certain diseases or mutations in DNA. From generations to generations it keeps being passed down. Historically depending on where you family tree came from, they were subjected to various diseases from their environment, some produced natural anti-bodies, some didn't. If you go down the family tree and introduce the same mutated DNA within familial groups it mutates even further, to a point where natural anti-bodies have no effect on them.
Now, you could say that if i married someone that was not my cousin, i'd be susceptable to same thing. Not as great as if i married a cousin though, since familial genetics are of a stronger influence.
I personally don't agree with marrying a cousin business, but then again i don't agree with eating monkey brains either, and people do that. Its really about whats socially acceptable within your own culture/beliefs. What seems right/wrong to me, might not be what's right/wrong for someone else.
Dok, its simple genetics. Although i don't have links, and i'm too lazy to post them, from general knowledge i think its plausable. Think about it this way, each culture/group is prone to certain diseases or mutations in DNA. From generations to generations it keeps being passed down. Historically depending on where you family tree came from, they were subjected to various diseases from their environment, some produced natural anti-bodies, some didn't. If you go down the family tree and introduce the same mutated DNA within familial groups it mutates even further, to a point where natural anti-bodies have no effect on them.
Now, you could say that if i married someone that was not my cousin, i'd be susceptable to same thing. Not as great as if i married a cousin though, since familial genetics are of a stronger influence.
I personally don't agree with marrying a cousin business, but then again i don't agree with eating monkey brains either, and people do that. Its really about whats socially acceptable within your own culture/beliefs. What seems right/wrong to me, might not be what's right/wrong for someone else.
Oh, don't worry, I understand the reasons for the concern, and it might even be justified. Of course through years of interbreeding, you show recessive conditions over time.
But the reason I'm asking is that I saw a study a few years back which said that the risks of first time first-cousin marriage aren't as great as they're made out to be.
BTW, this is the first I'm hearing about this 'mutating even further' business. The way it works is that certain genes can be passed down from parents in a recessive pattern. That means that if you have one dominant normal gene, and one recessive abnormal gene, the dominant one takes precedence and you are fine. But, when someone else has that same recessive abnormal gene, and you pass one copy on to your child and they pass another copy, the child is affected by the abnormal condition. Most people, including all of us, carry hundreds of these recessive alleles, but we don't express them usually because one of our parents gave us the other, normal one. In the case of cousin's marrying, the chances of both parents carrying one copy of the recessive allele is greater. When random people marry, there is still a chance, but it is greater that they will both posses recessive alleles to different traits.
In other words, I'm saying the same thing as everyone else here, that although it may be common in some societies, I would never marry a cousin. At the same time, it is culturally accepted in some areas for all the reasons mentioned in the article, as well as an attemp to keep the blood lines 'pure'. It's happened all over the world, and not just 'dirty' muslims practice it. Look at all the European royal families and how inter-connected their family trees are, how much intermarriage occurs there. As well, look at American and European history where many of the upper-class married within themselves to keep their blood pure from lower class filth. It's all about education, and people who still practice this tend not to realize all the negatives associated with marrying a cousin - what they do realize are the benefits of a shared family history and many other non-scientific issues. The key to changing everything is going out there and educating people on the basics of gentics, Mendel's laws, and how it will affect their children.
I understand full well how it works and why people are so disgusted by it. But I don't like coming on here and seeing people like Wanderer constantly trying to find ways to insult Muslims and Pakistanis and justify his culture as superior to theirs just because he doesn't like them.
But I don't like coming on here and seeing people like Wanderer constantly trying to find ways to insult Muslims and Pakistanis and justify his culture as superior to theirs just because he doesn't like them.
Listen dude, you seriously need to think and go for a walk before you post on Bindi and cast stereotypical aspersions about other posters. How is this post denigrating Muslims ? I quote a BBC report about bio-genetic pitfalls of cousin marrying, who in turn quote the Birmingham Health Care Trust, quote Myra Ali who is the still suffering offspring of cousin parents and quote the local MP who states that the Pakistani community are in denial about this issue.
Did you bother reading my posts about Hezbollah in Current Affairs and my castigation of the Zionist over-reaction ? I started a thread about wishing Pakistan a happy independence day and how highly I rate their mangoes...and I'm not ashamed to say that I still watch Lollywood movies and listen to Naseebo Lal.
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Ah the evidence isn't there. There's enough counter evidence to suggest, as Random Pattern stated, that the risks are as high as women being pregnant after 40. Which isn't very high.
This is kinda like those people that talk about how circumcision makes it so much cleaner and hygenic and lowers the risk of infection, yet they won't tell you that the risk of infection is insignificant, like super low.
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Mr Woolas warned the problem was "the elephant in the room"
A minister who warned about birth defects among children of first cousin marriages in Britain's Asian community has sparked anger among critics.
Phil Woolas said health workers were aware such marriages were creating increased risk of genetic problems.
The claims infuriated the Muslim Public Affairs Committee (MPAC) which called on the prime minister to "sack him".
MPAC spokesman Asghar Bukhari said Mr Woolas' comments "verged on Islamophobia".
Mr Woolas, an environment minister who represents ethnically-diverse Oldham East and Saddleworth, risked sparking a major row after warning the issue was "the elephant in the room", Mr Bukhari said.
Mr Woolas said cultural sensitivities made the issue of birth defects difficult to address.
The former race relations minister told the Sunday Times: "If you have a child with your cousin the likelihood is there'll be a genetic problem.
Awareness does need to be raised but we are very aware of the sensitivities
Phil Woolas
"The issue we need to debate is first cousin marriages, whereby a lot of arranged marriages are with first cousins, and that produces lots of genetic problems in terms of disability [in children]."
Mr Woolas stressed the marriages, which are legal in the UK, were a cultural, not a religious, issue and confined mainly to families originating in rural Pakistan.
But he also told the paper: "If you talk to any primary care worker they will tell you that levels of disability among the... Pakistani population are higher than the general population. And everybody knows it's caused by first cousin marriage."
"Awareness does need to be raised but we are very aware of the sensitivities," he added, pointing out that many of the people involved were the products of such marriages.
His comments come at a sensitive time for community relations following the furore over the Archbishop of Canterbury's comments about accommodating aspects of Sharia law in Britain.
This is to do with a medieval culture where you keep wealth within the family
Ann Cryer MP
Mr Bukhari told BBC News: "After his comments, MPAC UK is asking will Prime Minister Gordon Brown back him or sack him.
Mr Bukhari said it was "bizarre" Mr Woolas has spoken about a sensitive health issue which has no relation to his environment brief, and accused him of ignoring links between pollution and birth defects.
However, Mr Woolas was defended by cabinet minister Geoff Hoon who said expert analysis was needed on the extent of the problem.
"But it obviously is a very sensitive matter and no one, no one, would suggest this is a problem for the wider Muslim community," he told Sky News.
"I am confident that what he has said will have been said with sensitivity and with proper regard to his Muslim constituents and Muslims right across the United Kingdom."
The call for action was also supported by Labour MP Ann Cryer who raised the issue two years ago after research showed British Pakistanis were 13 times more likely to have children with recessive disorders than the general population.
Mrs Cryer, who represents Keighley in West Yorkshire, told the Sunday Times: "This is to do with a medieval culture where you keep wealth within the family."
"I have encountered cases of blindness and deafness. There was one poor girl who had to have an oxygen tank on her back and breathe from a hole in the front of her neck," she added.
"The parents were warned they should not have any more children. But when the husband returned from Pakistan, within months they had another child with exactly the same condition."
Research for BBC2's Newsnight in November 2005 showed British Pakistanis accounted for 3.4% of all births but have 30% of all British children with "recessive disorders".
There used to be this show on TV where this dude would go to the house of some "ethnic" mom and she'd talk about her life and make some of her cultural dishes. I can't recall if it was American or Canadian... anyone remember what it was called?
Anyway... I remember seeing it once and he was at an Ismaili woman's house. The lady talked about her youth and mentioned that she married her first-cousin because "if you're Muslim, you can marry". Later on, her daughter (looked to be in her early-20's) showed up and the TV host asked what she thought about the fact that her parents were cousins.
The look on the girl's face was briefly one of those "of all thing f--king things you could ask me" expressions while she tried to come up with a diplomatic answer.
I'm the product along with my 2 brothers and a sister of a first cousin marriage. My mum got married due to the fact single motherhood, nor abortion was widely accepted at the time (early sixties).
I'm glad to be able to post on a thread about this topic. My mum's sister thought it was icky. However, I don't think she should bring that up with me, since I had no say in the matter who my parents are.
The one thing that does run in the family is depression. I've had problems with it, along with my siblings.
As a born and raised Canadian of Pakistani heritage, I have struggled with the issue of cousin marriage ever since I learned of the practice (and the fact that my parents are second cousins once removed, but trust me I am not retarded! lol) Initially, it was an embarrassing part of my culture that I did not want anyone to know about, but as I matured, I realized it was nothing to be ashamed about. It is a part of my roots - the past. I will NOT marry a relative but when I look at the results in my own family, I cannot judge them too harshly - they do that which they know. yes, the odds of something bad happening are increased but it's not all doom and gloom. my elder brother married our first cousin and has three beautiful, healthy and rambunctious boys. Please have some understanding that this is an archaic traditional practice that will take some time for the community to move away from.
So let's understand:
My family is from the Northeastern part of Pakistan where the majority of British-Pakistanis are from or descend from (Mirpur/Potohar Punjab). This region, cousin marriages are the norm. The reason for this, is that this is a part of Pakistan where the "braderi" system is still very important. The "braderi" system is kinship system where members of the "clan" look after one another in exchange for unquestioned loyalty. It is a very different way of living than the one that we are used to here in the Western world where the individual is king, so please don't try to judge this society from your narrow viewpoint alone. This kind of system thrives in an environment where the state is unable or incapable of providing basic rights and law and order to its citizens. Cousin marriages within the braderi are used to strengthen family ties and retain wealth (land and property) within the family. Now this made sense in rural & traditional Pakistan where family ties were so important and since Islamic law does not prohibit cousin marriage (it sets it as the limit). Also, you have to keep in mind that historically these villages were remote and due to islamic restrictions on "dating" and "courtship", often times the only members of the opposite sex you had contact with were your relatives.
Anyway, all of what I have written above basically boils down to this: back in the day in Pakistan, given what they knew, given their societal setup, it made sense to practice cousin marriages.
The fact that this cultural practice has been exported into the modern era and into England/Canada/US/etc. by our community does NOT, given what we now know about genetic disorders and multi-generational inbreeding. There's also the issue these UK/foreign Pakistanis marrying their cousins from back home. This is a very serious issue for a number of reasons, one relevant one being that the culture of the UK born Pakistanis therefore remains perpetually that of the 1960s era remote Punjabi village - (and it's mostly the "bad" cultural practices they keep alive like cousin marriage rather than the good ones).
BTW, this is a predominately Muslim practice in South Asia. However, prior to the partition many of the non-muslim communities such as the Sikhs from this region (Potohar/Rawalpindi) also practiced cousin marriages. It is also common among the "Afghan Hindu" populations. No doubt this is due to living in close proximity with muslim communities. As well, I have learned the practice is common among certain South Indian population (or is that uncle-niece marriages?)
As a born and raised Canadian of Pakistani heritage, I have struggled with the issue of cousin marriage ever since I learned of the practice (and the fact that my parents are second cousins once removed, but trust me I am not retarded! lol) Initially, it was an embarrassing part of my culture that I did not want anyone to know about, but as I matured, I realized it was nothing to be ashamed about. It is a part of my roots - the past. I will NOT marry a relative but when I look at the results in my own family, I cannot judge them too harshly - they do that which they know. yes, the odds of something bad happening are increased but it's not all doom and gloom. my elder brother married our first cousin and has three beautiful, healthy and rambunctious boys. Please have some understanding that this is an archaic traditional practice that will take some time for the community to move away from.
So let's understand:
My family is from the Northeastern part of Pakistan where the majority of British-Pakistanis are from or descend from (Mirpur/Potohar Punjab). This region, cousin marriages are the norm. The reason for this, is that this is a part of Pakistan where the "braderi" system is still very important. The "braderi" system is kinship system where members of the "clan" look after one another in exchange for unquestioned loyalty. It is a very different way of living than the one that we are used to here in the Western world where the individual is king, so please don't try to judge this society from your narrow viewpoint alone. This kind of system thrives in an environment where the state is unable or incapable of providing basic rights and law and order to its citizens. Cousin marriages within the braderi are used to strengthen family ties and retain wealth (land and property) within the family. Now this made sense in rural & traditional Pakistan where family ties were so important and since Islamic law does not prohibit cousin marriage (it sets it as the limit). Also, you have to keep in mind that historically these villages were remote and due to islamic restrictions on "dating" and "courtship", often times the only members of the opposite sex you had contact with were your relatives.
Anyway, all of what I have written above basically boils down to this: back in the day in Pakistan, given what they knew, given their societal setup, it made sense to practice cousin marriages.
The fact that this cultural practice has been exported into the modern era and into England/Canada/US/etc. by our community does NOT, given what we now know about genetic disorders and multi-generational inbreeding. There's also the issue these UK/foreign Pakistanis marrying their cousins from back home. This is a very serious issue for a number of reasons, one relevant one being that the culture of the UK born Pakistanis therefore remains perpetually that of the 1960s era remote Punjabi village - (and it's mostly the "bad" cultural practices they keep alive like cousin marriage rather than the good ones).
BTW, this is a predominately Muslim practice in South Asia. However, prior to the partition many of the non-muslim communities such as the Sikhs from this region (Potohar/Rawalpindi) also practiced cousin marriages. It is also common among the "Afghan Hindu" populations. No doubt this is due to living in close proximity with muslim communities. As well, I have learned the practice is common among certain South Indian population (or is that uncle-niece marriages?)
Are there any illnesses among any of the descendants the cousin married in your family?
Are there any illnesses among any of the descendants the cousin married in your family?
Well out of 100 first cousins, I have one that is deaf and his parents were cousins. He's the only one I know of with any obvious physical handicap but that's a fairly small sample size.
As far illnesses, these days because of the way our lifestyles have changed, heart disease and diabetes are becoming more and more frequent. But I don't think that's related so much to "inbreeding".
Well out of 100 first cousins, I have one that is deaf and his parents were cousins. He's the only one I know of with any obvious physical handicap but that's a fairly small sample size.
As far illnesses, these days because of the way our lifestyles have changed, heart disease and diabetes are becoming more and more frequent. But I don't think that's related so much to "inbreeding".
Do you think depression could be counted as related to cousin marriage as lilac mentioned?
Do you think depression could be counted as related to cousin marriage as lilac mentioned?
possibly, but it's speculative. i mean there is some evidence that depression may run in families and that cousin marriage may increase its likelyhood but i don't think the experts have come to terms with any of that stuff yet.
I always thought that mandibular prognathism (ie: pronounced lower jaw with underbite) was a common product of consanguineous marriages. That type of feature seems to be common among people in ethnic groups known for endogamy.
I actually have two cousins that married. Their child isn't that old. Middle school methinks, but already has been courted by IVY league schools! Just chimin in
Why are so many of their women so good looking though? Seriously..
I guess, we should wait until all their mutations eventually develop extra limbs, ears and eyes on the back of their heads before anybody should be intensely alarmed.
Risks of cousin marriage
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